Connection between facial hair and baldness

[hairquestion]

I am in my late teens and have much less facial hair growth than peers. I know DHT is linked with facial hair and hair loss--does less facial hear indicate less of a risk for accelerated MPB?

[Mark]

I am in my late teens and have much less facial hair growth than peers. I know DHT is linked with facial hair and hair loss--does less facial hear indicate less of a risk for accelerated MPB?

Not necessarily. Some people just have terrible facial hair. I know, I'm one of them.

Do you have any signs of hair loss on your head?

-Mark

[kt_radford]

i think there is a link. i remember reading somewhere dht promotes "ironically" hair growth in other parts of the body i.e. facial hair. im 17 and have a very satisfying beard, but at the cost of being a norwood class 3 :(

hope this helps

[Kinky Temples]

Depends on what you mean by "link"

If you mean that the more facial hair you have the less scalp hair on top, probably so, that is IF you are genetically vulnerable to baldness, because more DHT in your body = more facial hair = greater impact on scalp follicles due to higher DHT.

In a non-balding man, more DHT would be more facial hair (and probably body hair) and pretty much no scalp hair reduction because the f***er's follicles are consistent all throughout.

[Mark]

i think there is a link. i remember reading somewhere dht promotes "ironically" hair growth in other parts of the body i.e. facial hair. im 17 and have a very satisfying beard, but at the cost of being a norwood class 3 :(

hope this helps

Some people are just different too. Look at Robin Williams. That guy has an OK head of hair and he's practically a Sasquatch.

[Ernie Primeau]

I and others have been regrowing our scalp hair by removing our body hair from the follicles. Contrary to popular belief, too much dht is not the cause of AGA, in fact it is needed to grow hair, along with 5 a-reductase. That is why inhibiting with the use of anti-androgens like finas, dutasteride, spiro etc cause more hair loss in the long term.

Here is some supporting evidence. Drs at Laval U stopped the growth of excessive hair by using Flutamide, and saw a dramatic decrease in scalp hair loss.
Posters at Hairsite claim they lost body and face hair from the use of Arimidex, and regrew scalp hair.
Dr Higano noted that side effects from the use of androgen deprivation therapy include a loss of body hair, thinning of the beard and scalp hair regrowth.
Female hormone therapy can cause body hair loss, thinning of the beard, scalp hair loss recession, and in cases, regrowth.
That is a lot of evidence in support of my claim. Ernie

[Kinky Temples]

That is why inhibiting with the use of anti-androgens like finas, dutasteride, spiro etc cause more hair loss in the long term.

Drs at Laval U stopped the growth of excessive hair by using Flutamide, and saw a dramatic decrease in scalp hair loss.
...What?

Does lack of DHT cause hair to grow, or hair to fall out? Make up your mind...

And no, DHT inhibitors do not cause hair loss because the hair loss is a cause of the DHT itself, but for the hair loss to occur you must also have to have the neccesary androgen receptor gene (which defines your pattern of baldness).

We are talking about scalp hair, not facial/bodily hair.

If what you said was true, the majority of patients suffering from pattern baldness would be women, because they lack the DHT which apparently you're saying is necessary for normal hair growth. God didn't make it that way.

[Dr. William Rassman]

I and others have been regrowing our scalp hair by removing our body hair from the follicles. Contrary to popular belief, too much dht is not the cause of AGA, in fact it is needed to grow hair, along with 5 a-reductase. That is why inhibiting with the use of anti-androgens like finas, dutasteride, spiro etc cause more hair loss in the long term.

Here is some supporting evidence. Drs at Laval U stopped the growth of excessive hair by using Flutamide, and saw a dramatic decrease in scalp hair loss.
Posters at Hairsite claim they lost body and face hair from the use of Arimidex, and regrew scalp hair.
Dr Higano noted that side effects from the use of androgen deprivation therapy include a loss of body hair, thinning of the beard and scalp hair regrowth.
Female hormone therapy can cause body hair loss, thinning of the beard, scalp hair loss recession, and in cases, regrowth.
That is a lot of evidence in support of my claim. Ernie

This is all pseudoscience I am sorry to say. If I am wrong and these so-called "Doctors" have the answer, I will be very poor and they will be very rich after receiving the Nobel Prize.

Taking estrogens, stopping testicular function and using antiandrogens make no sense other than to wipe out a normal sex life. Blocking testosterone (a potent androgen) will not lead to a normal male existance. The easiest way to manage that problem is to have men castrated and the body and beard hair growth may slow down or reverse and any progression of hair loss may stop, but I have not had anyone lately ask me to do that surgery. Transvestites take medications to achieve male castration and not only to the have loss of body and facial hair, they often develop breasts.

[Ernie Primeau]

Kinky,
Dht is needed to grow all hair, that is why when body hair stops growing, the needed nutrients to grow hair, for example, dht and 5 a-R flow to the scalp follicles and revive them.
Even Merck admitted that Propecia causes more hair loss in the long term, and we have seen the stories about terrible shedding from the use of anti-androgens. I said 10 years ago that Dutasteride would never be marketed as a cure for AGA because the shedding would be so swift and severe. I was proven right.
If women had as much thick body and face hair as men, they would also have severe scalp hair loss. It is ridiculous to think that pattern baldness occurs due to receptors acting on dht. It would not happen in the same pattern, on only some scalps, and only after puberty.
I think the word you are looking for is regimen. A regiment is an army unit. Ernie

[Kinky Temples]

Kinky,
Dht is needed to grow all hair, that is why when body hair stops growing, the needed nutrients to grow hair, for example, dht and 5 a-R flow to the scalp follicles and revive them.
Even Merck admitted that Propecia causes more hair loss in the long term, and we have seen the stories about terrible shedding from the use of anti-androgens. I said 10 years ago that Dutasteride would never be marketed as a cure for AGA because the shedding would be so swift and severe. I was proven right.
If women had as much thick body and face hair as men, they would also have severe scalp hair loss. It is ridiculous to think that pattern baldness occurs due to receptors acting on dht. It would not happen in the same pattern, on only some scalps, and only after puberty.
I think the word you are looking for is regimen. A regiment is an army unit. Ernie
Not doubting you, but I want to see where Merck said this...

Also when does body hair stop growing??

Also your explanation is still a little confusing...if dht and 5 a-r is needed to grow hair, what keeps the hair on women's head growing? Surely it isn't dht, at least I hope it isn't. They have next to none of that (meaning traces at best...and I'm speaking of normal women).

Also what do you think is greater, the number of people who've improved with Propecia or how many got screwed over because of it? Honestly, things like revivogen and propecia would have been labeled as scams by now.

Do you mind explaining the part where pulling out body and facial hair causes scalp regrowth? Because in my opinion that is extremely ridiculous...you'd think this would be common knowledge by now if this was true. Substances don't flow to the hair so much as it does to the follicle, so I don't see what removing body hair does.

[Ernie Primeau]

Kinky,
The Merck study was posted almost 10 years ago at alt.baldspot. You can google it, and you can also google shedding from the use of finas and dutasteride.

It takes a long time to stop the growth of body hair, even using laser. But, it time it is removed, it grows back thinner. So the sooner one starts removing it after it first appears, the easier it is.

I believe that a imbalance of estrogen and testosterone triggers hair loss. Side effects from using estrogen supps by women after menopause include excessive body and face hair growth, and scalp hair loss. Again, you may wish to google estrogen and hair loss, and menopause, also deficiency of 5 a-reductase.

At first, the perception of improvement, but Propecia, like all anti-androgens, grow hair in one area at the expense of hair in another. For instance, you may see more growth at the crown, but not notice that you are losing more at the temples, or thinning all over the top, or a loss of body hair. That is because it is taken orally, so there is no way to know what follicles will be affected, I suspect the weakest ones. Why do you think that it is not available as a topical. The shedding where applied would be too obvious. Ernie

[Ernie Primeau]

Kinky,
Almost forgot, removing body and face hair gets the needed nutrients flowing to the scalp hair follicles and revives them. It would be public knowledge if the medical world and media were a little open minded. Look up how long it took Dr Jonah Folkman to get his findings on angio-genesis to be accepted. More than 20 years. The follicles getting the nutrients is the key. See VEGF and hair.
Keep a close watch on All your hair, if you see thinning in any area for more than a week or two, stop what you are doing. The finas and minox combination is the worst possible, minox is a blood vessel dilator, it allows more finas to flow to the scalp. Ernie

[Kinky Temples]

Kinky,
The Merck study was posted almost 10 years ago at alt.baldspot.
Link it man...alt.baldspot lead me nowhere.

You can google it, and you can also google shedding from the use of finas and dutasteride.
The only results I would get from that is the common shedding that occurs within the few months of treatment. This has to occur for hair follicles to improve. Shedding also occures initially with any treatment that improves hair follicles.

It takes a long time to stop the growth of body hair, even using laser. But, it time it is removed, it grows back thinner. So the sooner one starts removing it after it first appears, the easier it is.
I've heard of this and I believe it. However, how inhibiting growth of body hair thickens follicles at the crown/temples in a predisposed man makes no sense, you know? Because that's not changing the levels of DHT in the blood, so if you can show me a source I can believe you at least somewhat. A lot of balding males before I'm sure inhibited growth of their body hair for cosmetic reasons. If that somehow grew out their scalp hair, they would've told the world, but that didn't happen.

I believe that a imbalance of estrogen and testosterone triggers hair loss. Side effects from using estrogen supps by women after menopause include excessive body and face hair growth, and scalp hair loss. Again, you may wish to google estrogen and hair loss, and menopause, also deficiency of 5 a-reductase.
Yes an imbalance of those would trigger it. Lower testosterone + higher DHT is bad. Lower Estrogen + higher traces of testosterone getting converted to DHT is bad in women, but I haven't seen you explain why lowering DHT in males causes more hair loss in the long run dude...

At first, the perception of improvement, but Propecia, like all anti-androgens, grow hair in one area at the expense of hair in another. For instance, you may see more growth at the crown, but not notice that you are losing more at the temples, or thinning all over the top, or a loss of body hair. That is because it is taken orally, so there is no way to know what follicles will be affected, I suspect the weakest ones. Why do you think that it is not available as a topical. The shedding where applied would be too obvious. ErnieType II accounts for about 80% of the lost hair, and Propecia inhibits Type II DHT. Propecia is more of a Type II 5-alpha reductase inhibitor than an anti-androgen.

Propecia is not like anti-androgens like dutasteride, which probably explains why a lot of thinning guys on dut are doing worse than people taking Propecia. Also would you mind just linking some things next time. For now I'm interested in knowing where you found out anti-androgens move hair around (my figure of speech) on the scalp.

Kinky,
Almost forgot, removing body and face hair gets the needed nutrients flowing to the scalp hair follicles and revives them. It would be public knowledge if the medical world and media were a little open minded. Look up how long it took Dr Jonah Folkman to get his findings on angio-genesis to be accepted. More than 20 years. The follicles getting the nutrients is the key. See VEGF and hair.
Keep a close watch on All your hair, if you see thinning in any area for more than a week or two, stop what you are doing. The finas and minox combination is the worst possible, minox is a blood vessel dilator, it allows more finas to flow to the scalp. Ernie
You expect me to believe all of this when you're not giving any sources. It's go to this website and read about it there. It's leading me nowhere.

For the record, I really don't care if you're right. If what I'm doing somehow is doing the opposite of what I want, I won't feel bad, because I know I'm doing the best I can for my hair and I'm trusting the most credible group of people in the world on what to do about it. Your androgen theory makes little sense, in all honesty, which is why I'm asking for sources, though I have to say now your no-body-hair theory is making a little sense. It's believable but why should I spend months if not years destroying my bodily follicles if I don't know what you are saying is right or not? I guess you see where I'm going with this.

Also funny thing, I tried to look up sources for your claims and the first one I run into states the opposite of what you're saying.

Apparently some scam artists suggest that body hair takes all the nutrients needed to grow hair and this robs scalp hair of the nutrients they need. This then causes the follicles on top of the head to become dormant and the hair to fall out. Why body hair follicles are able to get all the nutrients they need but scalp hair follicles cannot is never explained. However, they suggest that hair loss can be easily reversed by removing the new hair growth from the root. They suggest that removing the body hair using tweezers, or better still their unique organic hair removing solution, will enable scalp hair to regrow again.

It is possible that men with lots of body hair are more likely to develop pattern alopecia. Testosterone encourages body hair growth but it promotes androgenetic alopecia in scalp hair. So hight levels of testosterone for one man may mean lots of body hair but also a greater likihood of developing androgenetic alopecia. However, removing body hair does nothing to encourage scalp hair growth as the testosterone levels are still the same and still acting on the scalp hair. Many women and some men regularly remove body hair but have no apparent scalp hair improvement.

There is a simple example that demonstrates that lack of nutrients reaching the scalp is not the cause of androgenetic alopecia. If Lack of nutrient supply to the scalp (for whatever reason) caused hair loss then hair transplantation would not work. Hair transplants take hair from the back of the scalp and put it on top. If nutrient deficiency was the cause of hair loss then these transplanted follicles would also be affected. However, they successfully grow and show no signs of nutrient deficiency.


http://www.hairquackery.com/hairquackery/hairscientificclaims/007nutrientsrobbedbybodyhair.shtml

For now I'm sticking to the minoxidil and Propecia. If I find out in the future what I'm doing is inhibiting hair growth even more, I'll get myself a hairpiece, come back and tell you I should've listened to you. Fair enough?

[Lain]

Ernie is very well known and has quiet a "fan" community.

http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/0/120/RipOff0120210.htm

I know that this is not very nice from me. But I personlly think it should stay scientific here and I think that some people might actually get a wrong picture of what hair loss is about. No prob posting special theories in my opinion, but don´t advice people who might really be desperate about their hair loss, to do the snake oil treatments.

I am not Mr "I know so much about hair loss" but at least I point it out.

[Ernie Primeau]

Funny how Kinky could not find any links to the Merck study or anything elseI mentioned, but could go right to some site that has lies and misinformation sent to it by a snake oiler named honkguy who was associated with www.hairlosshelp.com site. They sold evrything from Revivogen to magnetic hair brushes as a cures for AGA. At least the hair brushes did no harm.
Since hairquackery did not contact me for my side of things, they ave no credibility. But it should make you wonder just who Kinky is, and what his motives are. Ernie

[Kinky Temples]

Nowhere did I say it was a credible source. I did not use it against you. I did not even try to look for credible sources stating the opposite of what you were saying because I know they are almost limitless in abundance. I merely laughed at the fact the first thing I found when TRYING TO FIND PROOF FOR YOUR SIDE (because you weren't providing any proof), was something saying your theories were wrong. I could post many of the most credible sources, but seeing as how you're talked about on Hair Loss Talk forums, I will not waste my time. I waste enough of my time doing other sh!t.

And why would I post sources exactly. You already said "contrary to what the majority think", so I already know you're not going to accept them, even if they're among the best of scholarly articles.

[Ernie Primeau]

Kinky means that his regimen is propecia and minox. His regiment would be Infantry, Armor, etc. Ernie

[Mark]

Funny how Kinky could not find any links to the Merck study or anything elseI mentioned, but could go right to some site that has lies and misinformation sent to it by a snake oiler named honkguy who was associated with www.hairlosshelp.com site. They sold evrything from Revivogen to magnetic hair brushes as a cures for AGA. At least the hair brushes did no harm.
Since hairquackery did not contact me for my side of things, they ave no credibility. But it should make you wonder just who Kinky is, and what his motives are. Ernie

Oh c'mon, we don't need to get into this kind of conspiracy theory stuff. Kinky is a guy just like you and me. He's not some guy sent to sabotage you.

You have to admit that your techniques are quite unusual, no? And there's nothing wrong with that! Plenty of people have great ideas that aren't recognized immediately.

I'm more than happy to have a discussion about your theories.

-Mark

[Mark]

Ernie is very well known and has quiet a "fan" community.

http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/0/120/RipOff0120210.htm

I know that this is not very nice from me. But I personlly think it should stay scientific here and I think that some people might actually get a wrong picture of what hair loss is about. No prob posting special theories in my opinion, but don´t advice people who might really be desperate about their hair loss, to do the snake oil treatments.

I am not Mr "I know so much about hair loss" but at least I point it out.

I don't want to get in the habit of censoring people just because they have odd ideas. I'm more than happy to hear him out and debate his methods.

[Ernie Primeau]

Mark,
I would be more than happy to have dialogue with you or anybody else about my method. I ask only one thing. Please, only one or two comments at a time. Otherwise it causes confusion and a loss of interest for all. Thank you. Ernie